Leveling Up in Life: Overcoming Gaming Addiction and Improving Men’s Mental Health - Dr. Agam Dhawan

[00:00:00] Yeah, the one thing that I would want anyone who's listening to this to remember and understand is that real life can be the video game instead of the game being the game. And so if we take all the things that we love in gaming, leveling up, getting loot. Uh, fighting, fighting bosses, fighting enemies, right?

Having, beating creatures with friends, having amazing stories and experiences, uh, exploring amazing locations. We can do all of this in the real world. And so if we remember that, like. We can level up just like we can in a video game, then ultimately, like, that's where you'll see, like, the success that you want in your life and, like, have the happiness and, um, life that you, that you want and deserve.

Here's the million dollar question. How do men like us reach our full potential, [00:01:00] growing to the men we dream of being, while taking care of our responsibilities, working, being good husbands, fathers, and still take care of ourselves? Well, that's the big question. In this podcast? We'll help you answer those questions and more.

My name is Brent and welcome to the Fallible Man podcast.

Welcome to the Fallible Man podcast. Your home for all things, man, husband, and father. Big shout out to Fallible Nation. You guys keep us on the air and a warm welcome to our first time listeners. Hey, thanks for giving us a chance. We hope you enjoy it. My name is Brent and today my guest is psychiatrist, Dr.

Agam Dwan. Agam, welcome to the Fallible Man podcast. Awesome. Thank you, Brent. Glad to be here. Now, we like to bring things in kind of light, so we have the random trivia question of the show. All right. So, so here you go. How fast can an ostrich run? Is it 15 miles per hour, 25 miles per hour, 30 miles per hour, [00:02:00] or 40 miles per hour?

I want to say 50. You want to say 50? That wasn't even an option? 50 is my answer. No, I said 15, 25, 30, or 40. Oh, okay. Let's go 40. 40? Okay. Now, guys, you know the rules. Don't pause this. Don't look it up. Make your guess. Write it down. If you're driving, please don't write it down. Remember your answer. We'll get back to this at the end of the show.

Now, Dr. Dewan, the first thing I ask is you to introduce yourself because I can read your accolades. Right. I just said, Hey, he's a psychiatrist. That doesn't mean anything to anybody. We know you're a psychiatrist, but in your own words, who is Agam Dewan? Yeah. So my name is Agam Dewan. So I am a psychiatrist as Brent mentioned.

And so I specialize specifically with men and gamers. So when I was a young man, I've struggled with my own. Um, mental health issues, isolation, loneliness, depression, anxiety, um, feeling [00:03:00] unwanted. And so having, still working on that journey, but having overcome a lot of those challenges, I wanna be able to be that, um, older brother that I never had when I was younger.

Now, if you could have any superpower, what would it be and why? Hmm.

Mind reading. Mind reading. Mind reading. I feel like it would really help, of course, with my job as well too, right? . So that's my selfish motivation. But in terms of communication, right? Like I think as, as guys we have, we really have to learn communication skills and just being able to. Uh, understand where the other person is coming from can really help us develop better relationships with them.

Okay. That's like, you don't spend enough time in people's heads already. Oh, you got to commit all the way. My friend, fair enough. If you could travel anywhere [00:04:00] in the world, where would you go? And why

I could travel anywhere in the world, any time period, or just. Any place, any location currently, any location. So I would go to, uh, Japan. And the reason I would go there is because in, in, in Japanese culture, right, like, like anime is a big thing. So like that's what I really enjoy. But also they're very disciplined, uh, people like that's why a lot of their companies like Toyota.

And, um, other Japanese companies I'm blanking on the reason they're so successful is because they follow an order process and they repeat it over, over time. Right. And so I would love to go there and kind of learn how they do that. So that way I can become better as well. I actually had a friend at one point who had a degree in [00:05:00] Japanese hydroponic engineering or something like that.

I was like. What even is that? He's like, nobody knows, but that's why I can charge money for it. Yeah. It was like, it's so specific, right? I was like, not just, just general engineering. You know, like, I don't even understand that, but yeah, he was like, they're just so, I was like, yeah, but you got really specific in there now, go ahead.

I was going to say, I remember hearing like similar to what you're saying. There was a. There's a big market. Oh, there was for like identifying whether a chicken is male or female or a chick based on the cloaca. Right? Like that way, you know, if it's like a chick or a, uh, I guess a rooster or a hen. Right?

And so there's a big market identifying that. And so Japanese researchers were. Really big into them. They were able to get like, you know, like one a second or some ridiculous rate like [00:06:00] that. But because of that, they were able to charge insanely high rates to the, uh, the dairy companies who obviously did want to know which were chickens and which were, uh, which were roosters and which were heads.

That's crazy. Yeah. Now, you ready to step on some toes here? Sure, let's do it. We're gonna set some people off. Best game ever and why? Oh, uh, In my opinion, the best game I have ever played is The Witcher 3. Why?

There's one specific moment that I can define for you where I realize that, like, this game is something special. So, imagine you're Geralt of Rivia, you're, like, exploring around this town, you're trying to find your, uh, your adopted daughter. And then you, you come to this swamp. And so you're in this swamp.

And these three, like, weird looking ladies come [00:07:00] out. And, like, one of them has, like, a pail on her head, they all have, like, parts of dead bodies on them. Clearly they're witches, like some kind of, uh, odd witch, but like, they're, they don't look comical or goofy. They look freaking scary. And so you're watching this and you're talking to these witches trying to find out where these daughters are.

Your daughters are, keep in mind, there's like missing kids all around the neighborhood. So you're like, okay, like I see body parts on you. So like, I wonder if like, this is where the missing kids went. And then this music starts playing, and it's like this most, it's like, it goes like do do do do do do do do do do do do.

And, and like the way it's done, it's like not like synthesized, but it's like very like rough, like it's a rough sounding music. And I don't know the instruments or the technical aspects, but it sounds rough. And I remember feeling so scared for Geralt the Witcher in [00:08:00] that moment and like so terrified of these villains and I've never felt this way about any villains like in other series and keep in mind this is like hour six into the game like way at the so I'm like okay like this game is something special and then like it just kept surprising me over and over and over again.

No, you know, I'm gonna hate mail on that. Yeah, are you a gamer? Oh, I, I, I have taken a step back from gaming. Um, I, I was, I actually, uh, it was one of the reasons that when, when we connected, I was so interested in talking to you because I lost three years of my life to World of Warcraft. Hmm. Yeah. Full on addiction.

I made the great mistake or I don't know, good moment of typing slash plate on all of my characters. Adding it up because it will in the chat, you can type slash play it. I don't know if you played well, [00:09:00] exactly how long you played that tune. And yeah, I, I did the math and I lost three years of my life to that game.

Dang three years. Yeah. So it's like, I, I mean, that was the end of that game for me. I've always been a blizzard guy. I grew up on Diablo and the original world. Uh, I knew Diablo four though, had not played it yet. And I'm really like, I took a break. Like I was, I played at an elite level in Diablo three for a long time.

And I was like, okay, I need to take a break from that too. It's getting a little intrusive. I'm getting a little too into it now, spending more and more time playing, but yeah, I, I've definitely got back and forth. I actually, uh, played D and D with some guys right now, once a week we get together and, you know, like through part of the campaign and yeah.

So gaming has always been a thing for me. It's just different variations and how into it I am, [00:10:00] but yeah, right. Of course, those guys, like, you know, my brother loves Baldur's gate and we played Pablo and world of warcraft together, but he loves Baldur's right. Everybody has that one game. It's like, this is the best game ever.

Yeah. I used to know some of the top ranked players in the world and halo. Oh, really? It's like Yeah. Everybody has those games that's just like, this is it. So someone's going to hate on us, but that's cool. I've never played the Witcher series. I've always wanted to, uh, just cause I love the character. Yeah, I do less console gaming and have done more computer gaming usually more more PC.

Yeah. Yeah No, it really is cool that everyone has their own specific thing for me It was Smash Bros. Like it's something that we started playing in college and started going to different tournaments at you know Started learning. Okay, like this is how you play competitively and Yeah, definitely similar like lost probably not lost experienced Probably years of my [00:11:00] life to with Smash Bros Yeah, I just hit a point where it's like, I'm not controlling the game as much as I'm, I'm sacrificing real life in playing the game.

I hadn't started. I wasn't even like rating with anybody in particular, like big, I wouldn't join a rating guild because I would not commit to two nights a week, four hours at a time for raids. I had certain limitations with some of the top rating guilds in the world, and I would periodically go with them if I was on.

But I wouldn't cross that line from elite casual to diehard Raider. My wife would have killed me and probably divorced me. But yeah, it definitely started becoming a problem when it was like, I'd rather do this than go actually like do life. Yeah, that, that was a come to Jesus moment. So now I'm really [00:12:00] particular about how much I get in front of a computer for gaming, uh, just because it's really easy to get carried away for me.

I started doing, uh, mech wars when that went online and I had to jump back from that too, because I started super casual and then all of a sudden like playing all the time, okay, nope. You know, that point where you lose control, right? And what we have to remember is that these platforms there are these games.

They're designed to keep us hooked, right? It's not like they just happens to us. Like they are structured in such a way with the rewards given out in such a way that we get like our behavior gets reinforced, right? And then it makes it easier and easier and easier to sink in. Now, guys, we're spending a little time getting to know.

What he's [00:13:00] about. I'm really, I've been looking forward to this conversation. Like I really have just because this is a topic that's near and dear to me. We're not just going to talk about gaming edition guys. We're talking about men's mental health in general. Uh, games just seem to have a bigger appeal to male audiences than female audiences.

And there are a lot of, I know several female gamers, but. It seems to have more of an appeal for us. And when we talk about that a little bit, we're going to talk about, uh, the loneliness develops for a lot of guys when not just in that time period, men and men in general seem to have a problem with loneliness.

But before we jumped down all that, we're enrolled our first sponsor and we will be right back with more from Agam. Now, before we go any further, I wanted to share with you guys. I don't always tell you how much I love doing my podcast. Like I passionately love what I'm doing. And one of the things that makes my life better as a podcaster is to work with a company like grow your show, [00:14:00] grow your show is a one stop podcast.

Do it all. Now I use grow your show for my marketing, but grow your show is literally a one stop shop. You can record your episode and just drop it off with them. And they take it from there. It's amazing. If you are interested in picking up podcasting as a hobby, or maybe you're looking to expand your business and use podcasting that aspect, talk to my friends over at grow your show.

Adam will take care of you. I guarantee it. I trust him. He's my friend. He's my business colleague, and I wouldn't trust anybody else with my show guys. Welcome back in the first part of the show. We're just getting to know a little bit who Agam is. Uh, now and the why behind him in this part of the show, we're going to dive into men's mental health, gaming, social media, and just all the things that affect men, some of the conversations that we don't like to have, this may be a little uncomfortable for you.

I promise it's a little uncomfortable for me because this is getting real close to home on some of these subjects, but this is a conversation as men, we need to be having [00:15:00] men's mental health is a major concern. And it's not something we talk about very often, very openly. And it's something we need to be able to have these conversations about.

Now, Agam, tell us your story. How did you come to be so passionate about the subject? You talked about it a little bit in your introduction, but what brought you to this point where it's like, you know what, I'm going to change the world on this. I'm going to, I'm going to start helping other men. For sure.

Yeah. So I have a very specific moment in high school and I remember coming home every day. and grabbing a plate of Oreo cookies, taking it down to the basement all the Lights are off closing the door and then just gaming like that was my routine in high school and so because I knew my dad didn't come home till around like 6 30 and This I gave me a perfect like couple hours to to game [00:16:00] But then I also had a PC in my room and so would do the same thing later later on like into the night, too There was a girl that I wanted to ask to prom, but I was too scared.

I was legitimately too scared to ask her out. And then I saw that a couple weeks or, uh, a couple weeks later that some other guy had asked her out. So I still go to prom, right? I see this girl that I wanted to ask, that I wanted to date, go out or dancing with this other guy. And I just remember feeling like, fuck, like I just spent the last four years just gaming.

Like, I, I didn't develop any social skills, like, I, I didn't know how to talk to girls, I never kissed a girl, like, anything like that, and I just spent my time gaming. And so going into college, I was like, [00:17:00] man, like, this feels miserable, like, I need to change this. So go to college, start getting more social, join a fraternity, uh, become involved in like, like community service and like, like a whole different, like, like clubs and stuff on campus.

And I was like, okay, like, this is awesome. Like, I, like, I'm having a lot of fun doing this and I feel like I'm growing as well. But then I was able to scale back the gaming where I still did it, still enjoyed it, but it wasn't taking over, uh, my life. And then when I went to medical school and then trying to decide where I wanted to go like I knew that I wanted to be a psychiatrist because like I've worked through a lot of these mental issues in my head and so can help other people make the change their thought processes and behaviors too.

And then when I was. Looking into more specifically, like what kind of psychiatrist do I want to be? Like, what, what do I want to dedicate my mission, my life to? This is what resonated with me most [00:18:00] strongly. Like, this is what I feel a passion towards because I know that there's other young guys out there and just in a similar position, if not worse position.

Uh, than me. I think it's only getting harder and harder for guys, especially as the social media age kind of takes over. And so I want to be able to help these young guys, uh, avoid a lot of the pitfalls that I had and be kind of that older brother that, that even father figure, quote unquote, that, um, that I never had.

See, there's an origin story for every hero, right? And every villain too. And every villain. So whether you call yourself either one, it's, everybody's got that start point where it's like. Right. Something clicked. Now I'm curious in your practice, uh, with your experience, why do you think more and more young men and even middle aged men are starting to pursue, uh, venues that let them disconnect from reality?

Yeah, that's a good question, [00:19:00] right? So I think since the dawn of time, we've always wanted to disconnect from reality. Whether it was like the wine that, that we would make, or, um, like, you know, kind of herbal psychedelic stuff and native shribes to... Um, but what is it called in the rural communities that you make, uh, moonshine, like making moonshine, right?

Like, there's, there's always like, we've always wanted to do that because they're instant dopamine hits and dopamine hits give us pleasure. And so now. What's happening with gaming and stuff is that it's so easy to fall into them, right? When you get into alcohol, of course, you know it's bad for you. We know that our body feels like crap when we engage in it, right?

And they're still stimulating our dopamine system, the reward pathway and all that. Gaming, social media, it does the same stuff, right? Like it's there, it gives us quick dopamine hits. And then because we have quick dopamine hits, it reinforces [00:20:00] that behavior to want us to keep seeking it out. And so that's why it's even easier and easier and easier to fall into.

And so add that, add in that other people don't perceive it as a bad thing, like video games or porn or whatever, social media compared to like drugs, right? Like there's no comparison and it's perception. So that makes it a lot easier too. And then plus any kind of struggles that guys are having. Right.

It's a lot easier to, uh, engage with and to forget about them entirely and engage in the video game world rather than addressing them in the real world. Okay. I'm, I'm curious why gaming, right? They're all as manifestations and we have always just connected to some extent, but you know, you and I touched on it earlier, right?

There was a early console games. I'm old enough to remember the original Atari. Of course. I actually had one. I had a Commodore 64. It was one of the only game systems we [00:21:00] ever really had in the house. But then you had the birth of like, you know, D& D becoming recognized. Then you had like hard games like Magic the Gathering.

Right. As consoles continue to develop. So you had multiple facets of gaming. Why is it that gaming seems to appeal more to men? Yeah, that's, that's a really question. The, the way I conceptualize it in my head is that combat sports, sports competition, that always. Has been more of a masculine drive because that's because as men we desire to prove ourselves, right?

And so back in like the old days, the combat sports, right? Like gladiator fights, like those were men. Um, any kind of fighting issues, like, like there were men too. And so [00:22:00] there's like an, I think there's a greater innate drive for us to. Uh, prove ourselves and compete, um, because that lets us get noticed and so we're more likely to reproduce, right?

And then have children. And so that's literally fulfilling our biggest biological drive, the reason for living. And so now it's like you can take that, uh, that drive that we have and channel it into gaming, where we're trying to feed, defeat monsters and. Other people right competition with other people competition with the game and then it's just we can kind of fulfill that drive without doing it in the real world because it's so easy to do it and there's no consequences for doing either.

We were talking during the break and I mentioned that I, uh. I've made a post on time and I had a guy just totally go nuts on me. Cause I suggested that a lot of men should, if not completely step away from gaming, at least, you know, really [00:23:00] minimize their gaming activities because more and more men are using it to succeed in a non existent reality, right.

Instead of putting in that time, that, that was one of the problems that happened when I started getting addicted to gaming and I mean, I even observed. I watched a friend lose his business to World of Warcraft long before I had, I realized I had a problem. Right. And I was like, I'm not going to be that guy.

But this dude like unloaded on me for suggesting that gaming had the possibility of negative aspects. Why do you think it's a polarizing topic for some people? That gaming could be problematic. Uh huh. Yeah, that's a good question, too. So, it's in behavior change, right? There's a, there's like a series of steps for, um, changing behavior.

It's like, like, you know, if there's like a grief process, there's also a behavior change process. And, the first stage of that [00:24:00] is called pre contemplation. Meaning that, like, It's the stage where you don't even recognize that you have a problem. And so, the reason it's, it's polarizing is because, just like, imagine going to an alcoholic who doesn't realize they have a problem, and telling them that, uh, you know, this alcohol is bad for you, right?

They'll fight you, they'll curse you, or like the guy who's smoking. Or like, uh, the heroin addict or whatever it is, right? And we've all seen examples like this. Um, plus, so that, that, that's one aspect, right? Like, because it's so entrenched in our system. And then the other thing that makes it polarizing is that there's a lot of emotionality attached to it, right?

When we game, we feel emotions. We feel powerful. We feel amazing. I might have a crappy real life, but in this video game, I'm a level 70 paladin and I'm crushing enemies and I'm going on raids. And, uh, you know, I have friends in this game, of course. So [00:25:00] it's like. Gaming does so much for us, like it makes us like feel so good too when in a real world, uh, we, we feel crappy and it's, it's really funny because like even I have felt, um, this polarization, for example, when people talk about violence in video games.

It makes me go like, no, or like violence causing or video games causing violence. It makes me go, no, that's not true. Like, look how many people play games. Like I can play GTA the whole night and doesn't make me want to hurt people. Right. So even I feel this and I'm able to kind of temper myself. Right. So if I feel this because I have such a love and attachment for gaming, imagine the average person who doesn't have that level of psychological insight.

Now I want to go a little deeper here. So since I have an expert here to ask, right, the research on men feeling more and more lonely at this point in history is, is really [00:26:00] disturbing. Uh, even the men who are in quote unquote, healthy relationships, the research showing how many men actually like, you know, Men, you wouldn't think are lonely because they're in a relationship and they have a good job or whatever, right?

The amount of men who feel lonely, even in a group, even in a relationship, the amount of men dealing with depression and anxiety, suicidal thoughts and other mental health concerns, it's just flourishing. Like it is just the numbers are terrifying. Can you share any insights into why we seem to be moving into this negative?

So I think, I think, I think it speaks to a lot of what we were saying before, right? Like, with social media, with video gaming, all of that. The access is so, so simple. The barrier to entry is so incredibly simple. As, as [00:27:00] human beings, we're designed to be social creatures connected in our communities, right?

Like that's how we evolutionarily survived by working. And so the way our bodies evolved, they have, they evolved to promote these processes, right? Because all of this favors reproduction. It's the reason why sex feels good and we want to do it is because it feels good, because it promotes that reproduction.

Same thing with socializing. And so now we're getting to everything where it's so super online, you know, like we, everyone connects online, uh, all the time is spent gaming too, right? Oh, every connection is online. It's so easy to escape from the real world. When like all these like online kind of stuff, um, exists too, right?

But then our bodies aren't used to this kind of online behavior, we're cutting out the, the social aspect of things. Uh, we're also flooding our dopamine system as well. Oh, that's, that's another big [00:28:00] reason is because dopamine is our reward and motivation neurotransmitter in our brain, right? Like that's what makes us want to do things like eating healthy and like working hard, that sort of thing.

But imagine like those tasks, like they're at a level like here, but when you take a drug like alcohol or weed or anything, like our dopamine spikes here, like the pleasure we get same thing with like gaming and stuff too, right? So imagine if our dopamine is here, like baseline is here and like me working out gets me this level, but playing games gets me this level.

So it's like, why would I want to do this when I could do this, like do the easy activities, right? But then the problem is when we do the easy activities, dopamines are chemical for motivation. And so, when we do stuff like video gaming, like, I could game all day and then feel tired, even though I didn't, I didn't jack shit that day.

And it's like, why, why is that? It's because we've drained our dopamine [00:29:00] motivation system. So now we don't feel motivated, we don't have no energy. And these are signs of depression, right? So, uh, for a day it's fine. But I imagine competing this pattern for months and months and years. Then our diets start falling off.

We start getting more isolated. So now we're more isolated. We're more anxious. We don't know how to interact. Right. And so like everything kind of is a, uh, is a spiral going down with all of this available at our fingertips, right? Yeah. The scroll is unending. Uh, these little devices are both a blessing and a curse, right?

Your cell phones. The power of the world of your hands, you can game, you can scroll through social media, you can quote unquote, I'm using air quotes guys for connecting with people. Yeah, it's incredible. The biggest problem facing young men today. I think it's loneliness, loneliness and isolation, especially when we come to young men and the [00:30:00] The reason is because right as young men, we are filled with testosterone and we're in puberty.

We want to reproduce. We want to be liked by the opposite sex. You know, we want to feel strong. We want to feel powerful, but we can't channel that. Because it's getting harder and harder to date, you know, I think that as this especially speaks to young men is that as, as social media is taking over, right?

Everyone's going online. And so women are rewarded for going online, right? Because they have photos and like they get likes on those photos to get comments. They might have hundreds of messages, Tinder, hundreds of messages, Instagram messages, right? And so it makes it, like, they have all the options. And so because they have all the options, right, they want to choose, um, the best ones that they can.

Whereas, like, imagine, like, 300 years ago, you had 10, 10 guys, 10 girls in the same high school. And so they would all pair up because, like, that's what you had to [00:31:00] do. But now in the high school or, like, early college, right, we might have... The same 10 guys and 10 girls, but all those 10 girls, right. They might just want that one guy because now they're getting attention from all of them.

Right. Or they might not want one guy, but now they've access to the world. So you get attention from all these guys everywhere. And so it's like, if you have that level of connection with someone, imagine like. Leonardo DiCaprio DMing your girl like, I'm sorry, you got no chance, dog. Right? And so what that does is that all the rest of the men kind of get left in the dust.

And so then, you know, they feel lonely. It becomes harder and harder, right? Like people, they want to connect or don't want to connect back with them. And so what do they do? Go back to gaming and like, cause that's where they feel powerful. That's where they feel motivated. Again, go to pornography, right?

Which feels good in the immediate, but then of course makes it harder to Um, develop a relationship in real life, right? Because there's no motivation to do that when you can just go to porn. So I think [00:32:00] all these things really feed into. Male loneliness, like one of the problems today and like social media is like the gateway and gaming is one of the gateways to that.

I think there's a big difference in value system. You were talking about, you know, women can get all these attention on social media. Men are inherently valued by what they provide, by what they can read, right? And women are primarily valued by Their appearance. And that may be barbaric to somebody listening.

I'm sure I'm pissing somebody off there, but it is true, right? We, we can argue semantics all day and say, well, that's massage. No, it's not. It's just true. Uh, that's always been, that's how reality has been, right? Yeah, women have always been prized for the way they look. Men have always been prized by what they can provide.

Right. In the olden days, if I couldn't hunt, like, and bring back kill for my family, like, I wasn't reproducing. No one would want to reproduce with me because I'm like that, either A, [00:33:00] be dead, or B, like, I'm the weak guy. So it's, it's the same thing. And then we want like back in the old days, right? You wanted the women who was young and fertile because that gives you the best chance of having, uh, the most successful offspring.

So guys, we're, we're, we're treading into some deep areas here. And like I said, if you're feeling uncomfortable, please don't leave. This is an important conversation. We need to be having men's mental health is very important. You are very important. And you're not going through this world alone, even if you feel like it.

So please stay in this conversation. We've been talking about mental health. We've been talking about gaming, loneliness, social media, the way that impacts us, the way that impacts the way we look at life in the next part of the show, we're going to dive into leveling up in real life as a man with our guests.

Today, it's going to be good guys. It's important. Please stay for this part of the show. This is the part you really need. If you haven't tuned in. Really like dialed in this next part of the show is really where you need to dial in guys. [00:34:00] This is the important stuff. We will be right back with more from Agam and roll our sponsor.

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Now let's go on to the show guys. Welcome back in the last part of the show. We were discussing men's mental health, gaming, loneliness, social media, just the impacts of modern society on men's mental [00:35:00] health. And this part of the show, we're going to dive into the application part. And this is where you guys really.

I'm begging you please tune in for this. Okay. We're going to talk about leveling up in real life as men got Dr. Agam Devon on here and he's a psychiatrist and this is what he specializes in is helping young men and men go from dwelling a little too much in the virtual realms of gaming and things like that to really turning their life forward in the physical world as well.

He is a. Dedicated gamer and loves that. So he knows exactly where you are guys. And let me say, we're not condemning gaming. Okay. But like anything, if it starts to control you or interfere with you living your real life and living the life you want to live, it can become a problem just like drinking, just like drugs, anything like that.

We're not saying it's bad. It's saying, does it have a hold on you or are you just doing it [00:36:00] for fun? Now, why did I, I saw a question when I was prepping for the show that you said you're always ready to talk about. And I had to ask, right? Cause it's like, this, this is the question I want to know. What does everybody get wrong about men's mental health?

Yeah. So what everyone gets wrong about men's mental health is that. We don't just want men don't just want to talk out our feelings because the conventional advice that's always just given to guys is Oh, just go to therapy. Oh, just go to therapy. Oh, just talk about it. And it's like, there's a reason that men haven't sought out that kind of healing is because it's not really in their forte, right?

When we imagine, like, imagine a group of women hanging out, what, just hypothetically, what are they doing? Ch ch chatting. Gossiping, right? It is what it is. [00:37:00] Imagine a group of guys hanging out, what are they doing? They're fishing, they're playing games, they're like playing football, they're hunting, they're like, they're doing shit, right?

And it's not to knock. Either or, it's just that it's a different way that we like process things, we process emotions, um, different things that drive us, right? And so similarly, like, things like just like therapy and, and talking, like, it's just, it's like step one, and that's like men want to do things that are more like action based and like that's how they're able to kind of solve their problems, right?

And I think that's what people get wrong is that giving the same kind of almost like feminized advice to men is different than giving it to women to help kind of solve whatever their mental health issue is happening. I actually saw a post on Instagram [00:38:00] the other day and it was a bunch of men standing holding a beer around a barbecue grill and I said, what's amazing is this many men who have never met each other before can stand around this barbecue grill for an hour and a half.

At a neighborhood barbecue and they still will not know the other person's name before they leave.

Uh, guilty, definitely been, definitely been there. It's just not, it's not our go to move for sure. Right. But then you still might invite the other guy for barbecue next week at his place. Right. Like you might still do that and you still connect it. It's just a different way. Right. And, but the conversation will stay superficial for a long time.

We're not going to become best buds. We're not going to necessarily start talking about our feelings or anything like that. We're going to [00:39:00] talk about dad stuff or marriage stuff. We're going to talk about barbecuing and the best way to barbecue because. I know guys who can talk about that forever. Yeah, exactly.

And I think that's where men and women run into that, uh, that communication dynamic is that, like, women like to talk about feelings and people. Men want to talk about things and facts. It's like, that's where like hard communication line, uh, really can break down. So here, here's one of the questions that I know I can hear being asked in my head, right?

Is, is where do we start? Right? Because anything we do as a coping mechanism, whether that's gaming or drinking, it's exactly that. It's a coping mechanism. How do we isolate the problems or the feelings or what's bothering us? that we're jumping into gaming to get away from without [00:40:00] necessarily going and, uh, spending, you know, weeks or months or years in therapy.

Cause a lot of it's not going to do it. So for our listeners, you know, how do we start down that line? Because there's something we're avoiding, right? I mean, it's coping mechanism basically. And I made that. So how do we start to get to the root of that? Yeah, for sure. Right. And so this is the reason why like therapy is recommended for people is that.

It helps another person gain insight into you and your behavior and then so that way when they call it out, then you have that insight into yourself, right? But you don't necessarily need a therapist always to do that. Just like you can have a personal trainer to help you train, but you don't need a personal trainer to get jacked in the gym.

So, the first step is [00:41:00] always, is mindfulness. And which is a skill, right? Like keep in mind, it's a skill that you can level up just like we level up our stats and dexterity and, uh, uh, attack strength and defense strength in a game. Right. Mindfulness is a skill that we can level up in real life. And what that means is being aware of our own thoughts, being aware of our, how our thoughts like shape our feelings and be aware of how our feelings shape our actions.

And of course, how our actions shape into thoughts. A classic example is, let's say you and, we and your girlfriend get in an argument, and then you go game, and then you're mad, and so you go game, right? But then like that cycle can repeat where you're getting an argument, you're not fixing the problem, so you go game, but then because we were gaming, then we start having negative thoughts again about our partner because we didn't really address all the issues, right?

And then that makes us feel crappy. And so because we feel crappy, we game and then the whole cycle repeats. [00:42:00] Right. And so the first step is really having mindfulness, realizing, okay. I'm in this cycle. Oh, I realized that this is my coping mechanism. Oh, I'm realizing that me thinking these negative thoughts about my partner is getting me upset.

Oh, when I feel upset, this is the action I take is a, is a game, right? And so when you realize the problem, That's when you can start formulating the solution to get out of that problem. And I think this is where men can really excel is because we're so problem based and fact based. Once we isolate the problem, we can devise a logical solution to get out of it.

Because I know personally, like that's, I, I don't like to ask for help. Right. And I think I'm, I'm pretty. Uh, a pretty universal representation of most men in that fact, that's like, that's the last thing I want to do. Yeah. It's like my problem. I got my own problems. You, I'll handle them. Cause I'm not going to go [00:43:00] asking for help guys.

There's absolutely, absolutely a time to seek professional help. Okay. If you are really struggling, please get the help you need. is so important. How do we start moving? If we're struggling with feeling alone, even for surrounding people, we're struggling with feeling alone. How do we start to. Level out of that, some people, it might be just their comfort zone.

Some people might be, you know, introverted. They're just, they don't like people. How do we start to level out because that's a real problem these days. Yeah, no, absolutely. Is, is a real problem. So speaking on the guide thing you had mentioned before, right. Think about Luke Skywalker. Did he do it by, did he save the galaxy by himself?

No, he, he had Obi Wan Kenobi, right? Think about more contemporary, like, Harry Potter. Did he defeat the Dark Lord by himself? No, right? Like, he had [00:44:00] Dumbledore helping him. And so, like, every strong person in, like, the history of any, like, story ever has had a guide, a mentor, a helper helping them in their own hero's journey.

And so now you think about trying to level up in your own life, right? The best analogy I've found that really helps and works with a lot of people is recognizing that you are the main character in your own game, right? Like, you're the main character. Nobody's coming to save, save us. Like, no, unfortunately, like, you know, you're starting out, this is the beginning of your game, and nobody's coming to save us, but you gotta beat this boss, right?

You gotta beat the, the final boss, or like, all these bosses. One of, in the real life, that boss might be loneliness. So what do we do? We start leveling up, right? Like, we go train, we fight these monsters, we, uh, get better gear, [00:45:00] we, like, Yeah, exactly. Train, fight monsters, etc. You do that to level up, right, in the game, so that way you get strong enough to, you do quests to fight the boss.

So same thing in, if you're trying to beat, let's say, loneliness, right? Well, we can level up our social skill stats, we can study social skills, we can study, we can read how to win friends and influence people to learn that. Okay, we're studying the skills. But then we can also go on quests to get XP, the quest being, oh, I might go to the bar on Friday night and just sit down, or I might go to this like, uh, meetup that's happening, right?

Or I might go to the social gathering that I skipped. Every time. And so when you start doing that, you're getting XP or showing ourselves that you can do it. And then eventually, as you keep leveling up in real life, then, you know, that's how you get out of this situation that you're in. I love that you're using gamification just because [00:46:00] we know it works, right?

That's, uh, that's the whole basis of like social media. It's gamifying, right? Getting those likes, getting those clicks. That's one of the reasons we all keep going back to that nonsense and playing with that. Can I get that? Right. They've learned to gamify our attention. Absolutely. I love that you're gamifying, leveling up as a person, right?

We're, we're big believers in incremental improvement here at the fallible man. Right. Little, little steps every day, you know, one step, one little step today to be better at something in some part of your life tomorrow, right? Little pieces, this real change takes time. Uh, there's no moment where all of a sudden we're a better person or a new person, it takes, it takes building those skills or leveling up.

In different categories in our life. So how can we gamify this journey [00:47:00] more in the real world, right? Because for some of us, it's just hard. I'm not a very social person. So going, I told you earlier, I've been doing some D playing D and D with some friends of mine. Right. That's huge stuff for me because I'm, I'm a very, I'm a loud personality on the mic.

I'm a very introverted person. I'm a homebody. There's nothing I would rather do than curl up on the couch with my daughters and watch a movie and go nowhere, right? I don't want to hang out with other people. So that was actually a step for me to go start spending time with other guys because I don't have a close circle of guys around me all the time.

Uh, and it was a set, like my wife kind of had to do a little prodding there. So how do we start making these transformations one piece at a time for guys who was like, They feel like this is such a scary concept, even to step out of the virtual world and into the real world. How do we start making that happen?

Yeah. So. I think the first thing is that [00:48:00] you have to, when you go somewhere, right? You have to have one, knowing where we want to go and second, knowing why we want to go there, right? Like whenever you travel somewhere. So similarly, whatever goal that you're setting, well, first you got to know what that goal is.

So in your case, it was okay. I want to be a little bit more social. I want to start spending more time with guy friends. So you had done, you had identified that as a goal. And now then the second part is, okay, what, why is that your goal? Like why, why this goal, right? Because we need emotion to fuel our actions.

That's the whole reason emotions exist is to feel behavior. And so why, why is that? Why is spending more time like a goal for you? And so you probably realize like, okay, I'm not feeling a hundred percent or, you know, I feel like there's a part of my life missing or I really miss these times that I had with my, with my boys or whatever it is.

Now there's [00:49:00] your why, and now you're having a why to, you're having a reason to pursue what you're pursuing, right? And so, that's, those are the one and two things that I stressed with anybody, like whatever, um, you're trying to get out of your situation is knowing, of course, where you want to go. Second, having a strong conviction, or even like whatever your reason is and why you want to go.

And then, Thirdly, I think this is one of the most important ones that people, most people neglect is that reflecting on the pain of your current situation, right? If your situation is good, then you're not going to want to leave it. But clearly there's something that's not right, something that's eating at us, something that's...

Um, not suiting us to make us want to go and that's to make us want to leave, right? So in your case, you could reflect on that pain of, Hey, I'm missing my friends here. And then use that pain to feel you for the guy who's, for me, it was like, I hate this [00:50:00] pain of not having the girl that I wanted to go and prom with, but I seen this other guy go on.

Right. And then feeling that pain kind of gives you a lot of that drive and motivation to, uh, keep moving forward. What is next? We're Dr. Agan Dhawan, what's on the, what's on the punch list? You got anything big coming? Are we doing books yet or are we, I, every, every great psychiatrist ends up writing at least one book, I'm pretty sure.

So is that in the future or what's next for you? Yeah, for sure. So that's, that's a really good question. So what I really want to do is all these things that we talked about, right? Like these concepts, these ideas, if. We can distill them to their essence and then codify the process, like write a book, write a, create a program, just like, just like working out, for example, like there's a process from getting, uh, like losing weight, right?

There's a certain process, there's certain exercises, [00:51:00] diets, sleeping regimens, like once the process is codified, you can follow that process to lose the weight. So similarly, my goal is to create what we call like the level 100 system. It's like a system for young men to be able to level up essentially, like they just follow the process and like level up in certain areas.

And so by working one on one with patients, what it helps me do is really develop out. Uh, the process, see what works, see what doesn't, and then eventually be able to codify it and then spread it to young men, um, around the world. Now, is your website the best place to find you? Where is the best place to find you?

Yeah, absolutely. My website's the best place to connect with me. You know, if you feel like you really resonated with, uh, what we talked about here, uh, feel free to book in. And you feel like you're struggling with some of the issues that I treat, then... Uh, yeah, feel free to book a consult call. We can do it right on my website.

And you can also just send me a message in my contact form directly, uh, [00:52:00] to reach out to me and we can have a conversation and then see, uh, you know, what kind of needs you have and what we can do to help. Now guys, of course, I will have all of Agam's connections down in the show notes or in the description, whatever platform you're watching on this.

If you're listening to audio show, all of those connection points are there. Uh, if you're actually watching the video that you see on screen, what his website looks like, and we'll have the address I'm not going to, what is it? Okay. Well, we'll see. Okay. How, how, how, how good is your audio game? It's www.

agamdwanmd. com. Dot com. So, so, you know, it's, it's there. Just go to the link. It'll be easier. Uh, you also have a great Twitter going, right? I was looking at your Twitter earlier, and so you guys are on that platform. You can go get more insights from him. There he is. Bringing the world of brilliant psychiatry and helping young men to Twitter or not, sorry, Twitter.

Ooh, TikTok. [00:53:00] Tick tock, my bad, Tick tock, classic error, I

have a Tick tock account because my business colleague was like, dude, you need to be on Tick tock. I was like, not another platform. I can't do it. Unnecessary evil. I can't do one more. I'm not really good with a short form of content, like re editing my videos that way, but guys, he actually has a phenomenal tick tock.

I did go to over, check it out. I just said it wrong. Uh, so check that out. If you're on Tik TOK, he's got some good stuff going on over there and we'll have all that information for you. Now we know why you're still here. And the answer is an ostrich can in fact run 40 miles an hour. You were right.

Congratulations. And if you guys got it right now, you know, nobody actually cares, but I'm impressed because, you know, it's like. One in 10 guests actually get that question, right? I just randomly search out questions on the internet. And if I can't find a good one there, I get into my box of trivial pursuit and start looking for random questions there [00:54:00] because it's the king of random trivia.

Now, Agam, we've talked about a lot of things and I've tried to be light on some of the subjects because it is a really hard subject when it comes to men's mental health, a lot of men are really uncomfortable with. Even talking about it, I don't believe it's talked about enough, but the way I want to end the show is what do you want the men listening to hear if they hear nothing else from this entire episode, what is the one thing you want all of our listeners to hear today?

Yeah. The one thing that I would want anyone who's listening to this to remember and understand is that. Real life can be the video game instead of the game being the game. And so if we take all the things that we love in gaming, leveling up, getting loot, uh, fighting, fighting bosses, fighting enemies, right.

Having beating [00:55:00] creatures with friends, having amazing stories and experiences, uh, exploring amazing locations. We can do all of this in the real world. And so if you remember that, like. We can level up just like we can in a video game, then ultimately like that's where you'll see like the success that you want in your life and like have the happiness and um, life that you, that you want and deserve.

Guys, be better tomorrow because what you do today and we'll see on the next one. This has been the fallible man podcast, your home to everything man, husband, and father. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a show. Head over to www. TheFallibleMan. com for more content and get your own Fallible Man Gear.