Getting Mental: Why We Need to Rethink Men's Mental Health

[00:00:00] It's time to get mental. Uh, it really is. It's, we got to stop delaying this stuff. Uh, it is so valuable. You will see a difference. Uh, there's a lot of different tools out there. Find the tool that works for you and start using it.

Here's the million dollar question. How do men like us reach our full potential growing to the men we dream of being while taking care of our responsibilities? working, being good husbands, fathers, and still take care of ourselves? Well, that's the big question. In this podcast, we'll help you answer those questions and more.

My name is Brent and welcome to the Fallible Man Podcast.

Welcome to fallible man podcast. You're home for all things, man, husband and father, big shout out to fallible nation and warm. Welcome to our first time listeners. Hey, I know there's a lot competing for your attention out there. I [00:01:00] appreciate taking the time to check us out. Be sure and touch base with me at the fallible man on most social medias.

Let me know what you thought of our show. I'd love to hear your opinion. And like I said, we appreciate you giving this chance and if you really enjoy the show, be sure to leave us review on apple podcast. That really helps us out. Today, my special guest is neuroscientist, CEO and co founder of The Mental App, Anson Whitmore.

Anson, welcome to the Fallible Man Podcast. All right. Great to be here. Now, Anson, we, we start on the lighter side. So, how's your trivia? Not as good as you would think for someone with a PhD, but, but bring it on. I, I would assume that you were busy studying more relevant things than random trivia facts.

But, you know, just, just that's a symptom of me. So I don't know. Yeah, I go deep. I go deep. What is the oldest soda drink in the United States? Is it A. Coca Cola, B. Pepsi, C. Dr. Pepper, or D. Canada Dry Ginger Ale? [00:02:00] The ginger ale is interesting. I would guess it's, I mean, I know Coca Cola is really old, so I'm gonna go with that, back to the days when it had cocaine in it, right?

Really happy days of Coke. And for all of you who didn't know that, yes, Coca Cola was originally called Coca Cola because it had cocaine in it. Yeah. Wow. So guys, you know, the rules don't skip ahead. Don't cheat. And for God's sake, don't write down your answer. If you're driving, just remember it and come back to it later.

We'll deal with that later. Uh, Anson, I don't do introductions. That's that was about as formal as it gets. So in your own words today, who is Anson? Yeah. Uh, PC neuroscience, uh, CEO and co founder of mental building, mental health app built for men, dad of two young boys, one years old and four years old, and also, uh, A kind of retired out semi professional rock climber, but I still love to climb.[00:03:00]

Nice. Nice. I saw a picture on one of your social medias of you climbing. So I didn't know if that was a hobby or if that was a little beyond a hobby. Yeah, I used to push it pretty hard, uh, I used to, mostly it's like bouldering, but I used to also, uh, do big walls, including some really big solos of thousand plus foot cliffs.

And now that I have the little kids, uh, and a wife, I don't do that anymore. Um, but maybe sometime like when I'm retired, when the kids are old, well, you know, if nothing else, you can hit a rock gym, right? Keep keeping a little bit of shape that way. I actually built my own climbing wall in the garage. Yeah, I like that.

I don't park the cars in the garage anymore. It's just a big gift, to be honest. Uh, but it's great. Hey, you know, I, I used to live a couple blocks from a climbing gym in one of the towns I used to live in. And honestly, like, that was one of my favorite workouts. Like, I, I go in the evenings and just go climb with my [00:04:00] wife.

And we, we got certified to belay each other at the gym. Man, that was just a great workout. I loved every minute of it. Yeah, a big part is, uh, you just get so into the flow and into the moment that I've noticed when I've gone into the gym and climbed, whatever I was just kind of stressing about, worrying about, or whatever was going on, by the time I leave the gym, it's just been wiped clean.

And that's the power of spending an hour or two just deeply in the moment as stresses and worries just kind of dissipate. I love it. Clarity. I get money on a motorcycle. When you do anything, you actually have to be a hundred percent president. It's amazing. If you get sidetracked while you're climbing and can fall to your death.

You have to be in the moment. Yeah. Yeah thing on a motorcycle. It's the same Yeah, I had a motorcycle for 15 years. All right, another thing. My wife is not happy with me [00:05:00] Sensible again, what is your best playground insult? What's my best playground? Playground insult. What is a playground insult? You know when you're a kid pushing each other on the playground Your mom.

Oh, insult , right? Playground. Insult. Yeah. Playground. Um, oh, wow. Uh, yeah, I, that, that's a tough one. Um, I, I think we'd always just be talking about your mom's face or . Um, I can't say I have too many good ones off the top of my head anymore. See, we're tapping into a whole different part of your brain today.

Yeah. Weapon of choice in zombie apocalypse. Ooh, uh, yeah, I gotta say samurai sword. Nice. They're good. I mean, just keep using it. Hey, you've run out of bullets with all the other ones. Samurai sword, you know, it's fast, nimble. [00:06:00] Just taking heads off. I don't know. Wasn't there a character in Waking Dead who had one?

Yeah, I think so. I didn't ever watch much of that one. I watched like a season or two and the samurai sword just seemed most effective and you never ran out of bullets. Right, and it's quiet so you don't draw a crowd. That's true. Right? Loud noises in zombie movies always end badly. Yeah. So. If you had to eat one meal for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Ooh, that's a good one. Probably, uh, spaghetti. Spaghetti? I'm from, uh, Midwest. Grew up eating spaghetti outside Chicago. It was a big thing. Yeah, like, uh, maybe a parpadelli or ragu or something like that. Oh man, so good. Meat or not? Meat. Yeah. Yeah. What about you? Oh man, uh, chicken fries, steak and eggs. Oh, well, yeah, I'm, I'm a [00:07:00] Southern boy.

I grew up with a very Southern family. I didn't live in the South a lot, but I, I grew up with a very deeply Texan family. So chicken fries, steak and eggs, hash browns, gravy. I eat it morning, noon and night. The only thing that comes close is chili dogs. Chili dog. Nice. . I'll eat chili dogs for breakfast. So you know, some people eat pizza for breakfast.

Can't stand it. But chili dogs, I'll eat chili dogs for breakfast. Oh, whoa. Yeah, pizza used to be mine and I, I used to, when I was younger, I'd be like, it's the perfect food. It's got carbs and if you have some meat on top and vegetables, . I didn't really get when I was younger that I was like, okay, maybe not the healthiest

Fair enough. What purchase of 100 or less have you made in the last year that's had the biggest impact on your life? Well, now I'm thinking about food and the best buy of last year was just like a cheese grater for Parmesan. That uh, Went on to the regu. I make, I was like, that was the best Buy [00:08:00] 2023. I don't know why we didn't have one of those.

is yours a totally homemade regu, like from scratch? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I get into it, yeah. It cooks for like three hours. Big process. It's a Sunday meal. Yeah. Yeah. I, I've got my red sauce, my ragu down to. 13 hours. Oh, well. It's a slow cook. Well, I make it, I only make it maybe once a year and it's a really big pot and it's a slow cook all day to cook everything down.

And then there's enough sauce for like, we jar it, give away to people, it's a couple mils. Oh man. You're going to have to have me over at your house. There's like, there's like four pounds of meat, an entire bottle of wine. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. Slow cooking all those ingredients kind of just like melt together and infuse each other with their flavor and yeah, oh, yeah Yeah, the longer it cooks the better because it just comes together Ironically mine's hotter the next [00:09:00] day.

I don't know what I do to it But like it's spicy or hotter the next day after you refrigerated it one night It's weird. Yeah. You got to have a look in the original little, little, little kick to it. If we were to sit down and have dinner together, what's one funny story your family would tell on you?

Uh, that is, uh, a tough one. What would be the top one when was drawn a blank here, I should have prepared for some of these questions. Um, the, a funny story about me. Yeah, but what would they tell on you to try and embarrass you? You can dig back a little farther than your wife if you want, what your parents would tell on you, your siblings, or Anything like that?

I'm just thinking about, yeah, what an embarrassing stories of myself. I'm not sure if this would be the, the go to story my wife would have, but it stands out in my head as one of my more embarrassing [00:10:00] stories, which is, I was young. I was at a movie theater, and we were watching that movie Tom Hanks. I was like, vice versa, or one of those, where they like switch bodies.

I'm kind of aging myself, uh, here, but we had, it was, you know, they're cheesy movies, but in the end, it had Just like one of those sentimental scenes where everything was really quiet. The theater is dead quiet and sad. And I was like eight years old and I just let out the largest fart that I think my young body ever had.

And it just erupted through the whole theater. And the whole theater just started laughing their asses off. And everyone in front was turning around and looking at me. And I was like scooting down to my seat and pointing at my friend who's sitting next to me. It was a very mortifying experience for me and when we left the theater, everyone was like, Oh, that scene, that was an amazing scene.

I guess it was everyone was thinking that's like what that scene actually called for was, uh, that [00:11:00] was their review of the scene as well. Hey, you changed that movie forever though. Those people are going to like laugh every time they see that scene again. Yeah. I remember that scene, it sucked. No, you, you, you did.

Yeah, it was a little too mushy. Too mushy. Exactly. What's one totally random fact that people don't know about you? Um, yeah, I spent elementary school in England. And, uh, for a couple of years, I was at a private school. Um, and the private school had a headmaster who had only one eye, because he, the other one got shot out with his shotgun.

Backfired and at the school they used to hit you with rulers if you were bad You'd have to hold your hand out and they would and they just swat the slack So I used to experience corporal punishment as a kid while I [00:12:00] was in school. Can you imagine that modern school today? The love sweets. Wow, yeah. I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if I found out that a teacher was hitting one of my kids.

Yeah, and our parents were like, yeah, go ahead, you probably deserved it, you know. Yeah. Yeah, if they weren't smacking me, you know. What is something everyone should know about you before we dig in today? Hmm. Uh, deeply care about, uh, amount of suffering. People go through, uh, it's really just motivated a big part of my career.

I really don't like to see people suffer and I'm working hard most of my life to figure out ways to help people, uh, experience less of them. Guys, we've been getting to know Anson just a little bit, who he is and connect with him. And the next part of the show, we're going to dive into the under discussed topic of men's mental health.

We're going to roll our sponsors and we'll be right back with more from [00:13:00] Anson Whitmore. Now, before we go any further, I wanted to share with you guys. I don't always tell you how much I love doing my podcast. Like I passionately love what I'm doing. And one of the things that makes my life better as a podcaster is to work with a company like grow your show, grow your show is a one stop podcast.

Do it all. Now I use grow your show for my marketing, but grow your show is literally a one stop shop. You can record your episode and just drop it off with them. And they take it from there. It's amazing. If you are interested in picking up podcasting as a hobby, or maybe you're looking to expand your business and use podcasting in that aspect.

Talk to my friends over at Grow Your Show. Adam will take care of you. I guarantee it. I trust him. He's my friend. He's my business colleague and I wouldn't trust anybody else with my show. Guys, welcome back. In the first part of the show, we just spent some time getting to know who Anson Whitmore is, what he's about and connecting with.

who we are in life right now in this part of the show we're going to [00:14:00] dive into men's mental health and a lot of you know that I'm very passionate about this topic I don't think It's something we talk about openly in the community of men, near enough, and it needs to be a normal conversation. So we're going to get into that with Anson.

But first, we're going to ask Anson, tell us, tell us the story, right? Because you've, you're a neuroscientist, you've got apps, like this is, tell us about you. Yeah, yeah, I, I don't really set out. To work on men's mental health, uh, in particular, but really looking back on it, it's just such a logical next step for me to go here.

I, my whole career, I've been working in mental health really. And it started in many ways when I was 19, my uncle who had been living with us to help us through tough times when I was a kid at 19, when I was 19, he killed himself, uh, and that's why I got my PhD in neuroscience. Uh, I want to understand why people like my uncle.

Couldn't let go of his [00:15:00] childhood, how that led to depression, and ultimately suicide. My research is really focused on rumination, or just that repetitive thinking where you just can't let go of things. I was at Stanford doing research on depression and anxiety. What are the cognitive, neural, genetic causes of it, and my cousin other side of the family.

He reached out to me. I hadn't heard from him for a couple in a few years and, uh, I didn't realize from the message that he'd left that it was a call for help and I didn't get back to him in time because a few days later he killed himself as well. Uh, and that is what motivated me in a major way to leave academia.

Uh, we were just making tremendous strides in understanding. What are the causes of mental illness? Um, but we're just doing so little to scale up its solutions. Um, there's just not a strong seat of academics, solutions, or moving fast. So for a dependent academia to do this, I really [00:16:00] believe it is going to take another hundred years.

Um, so how do, how do we move more quickly? And, um, that was a big motivation going into tech. Um, and tech moves fast. They know how to scale things up. If there's a solution, they get it into the hands of millions of people. And I ended up joining, uh, CALM, a mental health app, meditation app, uh, as the founding data scientist.

I was already pretty deep in machine learning, AI kind of stuff, um, from my research, and I was employee number 10, my co founder at Mental. He was the founding engineer. Basically built Calm with his bare hands. I think he wrote like 80 percent of the code base over there. Um, and we, uh, you know, I knew from research how much meditation could help you.

Back then it was still looked at as pretty kind of niche and weird. Um, We struggled to get fundraising early on. One investor said, uh, meditation, someone only done on college campuses and at Burning Man. [00:17:00] Um, and this is like 2017. Uh, so it's still kind of really like woo woo. Even though the research was behind it, just nobody has spent the time to make it feel more normal, more commercial or mainstream.

And it was a really big thing that we did at Calm is we just kind of took away all those, those oddities are things that are. We're unusual to the American culture and Western cultures made it more normal when we grew. We got tons of people in a meditation millions Sometimes I would tell the head of UA user acquisition at home I was like, I think maybe you got more people to meditate than anyone in the history of humankind and So we were just, you know, proud of the work we did there, but it was always just really clear, uh, that we were struggling to get through to guys.

I look at the space, and it's just clear, generally, we are struggling to get through to guys. There's, you know, men are less likely to do therapy. [00:18:00] You look at mental health app space. There's one report saying there's been 20, 000 mental health apps built, uh, basically since like 2017, which is pretty wild.

Uh, and You know, a lot have been built explicitly for women, so they're not getting it through to guys. Uh, all the general use ones out there, a lot of them are being used two to three times more by women than men. And if you look at their social medias, the tools used, etc. Even though they say they're for a general audience, they're pretty female centric, uh, when you look at it and, and the problem to me, uh, you know, as I left home and started thinking about next steps is men are 80 percent of suicides, mental health issues is Probably the biggest cause of death in men under the age of 45.

We have a real mental health crisis. And if we don't figure out a way to get through guys, we're never going to resolve a suicide crisis. This just won't happen. And we keep thinking these one size fits all solutions [00:19:00] are going to do it. But men's culture around mental health, it is just different from women's culture around mental health.

We need different approaches, we need different solutions, we need to meet men where they're at instead of expecting them to kind of come over and change before they get the help. This kind of weird catch 22 that exists right now. Um, and I think if we could follow that kind of research on how to do it, uh, we can connect with men, we can help them, and we can make a huge difference.

And we ultimately will see the suicide rate go down. And I think we're right now on this precipice, where it's, you know, five, ten years ago, it was weird for men to think about mental health. And I think now they're, they're doing so a lot more. And I think in another five years or so, it's going to be normal for guys to be doing stuff to work on their mental health.

They will actively realize that it is important to work on it in a daily sort of way. So I think we're seeing this real Cultural massive cultural [00:20:00] shift happening and I believe mental app we're building now the first mental health app built for men is going to be a brand that's going to help push us over that tipping point and create this change that I think we so desperately need.

And so I'm going to say it. So, so, you know, that way it's not on you. Um, it's my opinion and right. I'm just me guys, you know, I, I'm opinionated about everything. Uh, it's my opinion. based on conversations with other mental health, uh, individuals, people who specialize in mental health, that most current forms of therapy or mental health treatment are actually geared more around the way women's brains process things and the way that women think.

Now, I know women can think however they want, men can think however, but there is an instinctive way that men and women prefer to deal with different stresses and different things. And that face to face cuddly conversation that this traditional talk therapy [00:21:00] is really not something that's aimed at men.

That's not the way men process things has been my experience. Do you think that has to do with why we're having a, let me ask, do you, do you agree? Is there actually some kind of founding behind my opinion on that or not? Yeah, there's, there's a lot there. There's, uh, there are reasons to say that the current therapeutic approach is female oriented, female centric.

I mean, men, when they're stressed about something, tend to prefer to try to solve whatever is stressing them, uh, while women are more likely to want to talk about how they feel about being stressed, and therapy is a little bit more geared towards the latter. I think if you had If the mental health profession was really built for men, instead of just being pure therapists, they would be therapists slash coaches.

As for example, you know, one classic case is a guy who is struggling to [00:22:00] get a job and, uh, goes to see a therapist and therapists say, well, how do you feel about not having a job? And he's like, well, I feel like I want to get a job, help me get a job. And that's kind of a coach, right? Like what are the steps you need to take, holding you accountable, making sure it happens.

But a therapist And then also go deeper if there's a blocker there, you know, the way you're showing up in interviews. Uh, if you're avoiding different things, what's causing that? And so they're able to go deep, but where you meet the man at is around solving a problem and taking actions. That's the first step.

And then you only kind of go deeper into the other stuff if it's necessary versus We're going to prioritize all the feeling part, that's the first thing, and we'll always start there, and we won't really even necessarily do any of the coaching bit. Um, so yeah, that, that's part of it, and what you're talking about, that face to face kind of thing, I mean that's also really well known, is that, um, women tend to bond, are more likely to bond face to face in conversations, uh, [00:23:00] sharing, uh, feelings and how they're working with, uh, relationships, etc.

Men tend to bond in a way that's more shoulder to shoulder, uh, where you're doing an activity together, uh, that actually makes men more likely to open up and share different things. Uh, if, we almost feel overly exposed if we're sitting across from each other, making eye contact in ways that we don't. I mean, you take guys driving in a car even, shoulder to shoulder, they're able to have deeper conversations than they can if they're sitting across the table from each other.

Um, but, so, when we think as well about how to deal with, Loneliness and man, it's not necessarily just going to these deep conversations is first and foremost, you know What are activities that could bring us together to bond us then we will open up kind of more deeper conversations about hey What's going on in life, etc So what I'm hearing here is man, if you if you're working on your psychology or therapy What I don't even understand what licenses do what but if that's something you're [00:24:00] interested maybe you should also get certified as personal trainer and just open a gym and And work side by side, right?

That's therapy. Talk to me about how I feel about bench pressing. We're good. I mean, there's, there's a massive amount there. I mean, look, I want to be careful because therapy is research based and proven to help you. It is extremely effective. Um, but it's also, I, I view everything in the space as different.

They're tools. They serve different purposes. And to me, therapy, as I just said, like with that person can't find the job, if there's a blocker there, like the way they're showing up or they're avoiding different things, therapy can help you figure that kind of stuff out or say something bad did happen to you or you're going through grief.

You lost somebody. Um, therapy is really good there. But if you look at. Uh, mental health issues. We're seeing a huge increase in people struggling with their mental health. I mean, 80 percent of [00:25:00] people say they're stressed frequently. Um, their rates of depression, anxiety keep going up year by year, particularly when you look at it since 2010.

We've seen a huge increase. What happened in 2010? Smartphones. Uh, and you just look at through history where we're at compared to a hundred years ago, our lifestyle. It's so freaking different now. It has changed a ton. Um, we sit all day. Even if you exercise three times a week, most of us are sitting the rest of the day.

And we're sitting inside where we don't get sun. We get light at night time. You know, we eat bad food instead of socializing with friends. Look at social media and hit the like button. Uh, there's so many parts of modern society, the pressures and way we need to live now that aren't good for our mental health, but it's just what our lifestyle is.

But we're paying the consequences for it. And, look, if you actually went and saw a therapist and they were a good therapist, The way they would start and, and if your issue is not like, Hey, I'm going [00:26:00] to have a loss. You're just like, I feel kind of depressed. They would ask you like, what's going on with your lifestyle?

How are you eating? You know, are you socializing? And they would start by trying to fix the lifestyle issues before they go into any kind of deep seated trauma, et cetera. And so to your point of. Lifting weights, going to the gym and talking to somebody, well, yeah, exercising and socializing and being present with other people and off your screens, massive difference.

If you're not doing that and you feel bad, you feel stressed, anxious, depressed, start there. There's a really good chance that that is going to alleviate most of your issues. If it doesn't and you fix other parts of your lifestyle, eating well, getting off your screen more, etc, and you're still struggling, okay, maybe that's the time where you need to go deeper and go see a therapist.

But it's just kind of a tool in where do you start. And I think for a lot of guys out there, they're pretty open to starting with the lifestyle changes, starting with changes with their How physical they are in [00:27:00] exercise. They're just a little bit more hesitant about going into talk therapy. Um, and I should, because I can, I can come across pretty harsh on talk therapy.

I'm not saying talk therapy is not effective, gentlemen. I mean, let me be really clear about this, because I don't want to discourage somebody from going when they need to talk to somebody. I'm saying, are suggesting that to start those conversations with men, there may be a more effective tipping point to start that work together.

I think, uh, like a therapist, we'd get a lot farther started going on a walk and talking to somebody, right. Getting out of the office, which is an uncomfortable environment for men, getting out of the face and just going for a walk and starting that conversation there. per se than the traditional, let's dive into this in the office for, you know, clinical setting.

Uh, I think that would be less [00:28:00] imposing on men. So I think that there is absolutely a value to talk therapy. I think the initiation of that could be done better in some circumstances. And I'm sure there's probably a therapist out there who actually does something like that. Oh yeah. Uh, just my experience with them was never.

It was here's the chair. You're looking at me. Now. How do you feel about that? Dallin really feel like I want to throw something at you right now, you know It's not a healthy Start for me that way so I have a slightly slanted guys I have been to a therapist a long time ago. It was not a really positive experience.

It was a very traumatic Scenario. So part of it had to do with the situation I was in and where I was in, I was in the military at the time. It was, it was a mess. So I'm probably a little shaded, but I just think there's better ways to start that conversation with men that are gonna let men open up better.

Yeah. And that's, [00:29:00] uh. So one of my team, he's a chair of a psych department and a world expert in men's mental health. And a lot of his research is how to get through to guys and talk to them the way that works. Um, and I love his approach because it is, uh, he builds off like a strength based approach to masculinity.

So instead of like, Hey, masculinity is He has all these problems, he's full of deficits, and he's toxic, etc. He doesn't do any of that. He's like, masculinity has all these great sides to it. So I'm going to find ways to meet guys there and assume that masculinity is good. And what are ways that you could work if you're a therapist with men in a better way?

And one is, yeah, go for walks with, with men. It is a really effective way. Um, I think unfortunately, there's the way training is done in grad schools, there's not enough work being done. across different programs to teach, uh, up and coming therapists how to work with men in particular. Usually, in fact, [00:30:00] there's kind of a, uh, gendered work, uh, being done.

It's really focused on, uh, working with females and, and, and women's health, which in some ways is understandable if you kind of look back on, you know, historical dynamics, but in the mental health fashion, it's 75 percent of therapists are female. Um, most of the clientele are female, uh, most researchers in space are female.

So it, it, the people involved there are mostly female. So it's actually one space where it's really clear that there needs to be actual work done to the opposite end, uh, of understanding men. Like an example of this is I think a lot of therapists out there. don't understand, uh, what is a male form of depression.

Uh, there's traditional form of depression, which is just, uh, it shows up where you have anhedonia, a lack of pleasure, or you feel sad, etc. Um, but for men, and if you were to measure that in men, they're, [00:31:00] you know, way less likely to ever become depressed than women. But research lately has gone, wait, how does depression actually show up in men?

And it shows up differently. It shows up by anger, irritation, uh, men descending into risk taking, into substance abuse, men descending into workaholism. Uh, there's different ways that it shows up with men and there's an avoidance component to it. And so it doesn't show up just as the pure sadness side.

But the issue is, is that if therapists haven't been trained to spot that, they might not see a guy who's angry and look behind that anger and go, well, oh, it's sadness. Oh, there's depression underneath here. That's what's happening. Uh, so I'm really strongly believe that a big need we need to see if we're gonna improve men's mental health is that the therapy industry in general needs to become more aware of gender differences.

And there needs to be more training of therapists out there about how to work with men for walks. Understand mild [00:32:00] depression, understand that there maybe needs to be an element of coaching that goes with the therapy and there needs to be a little bit more flexibility there.

Why, why has it been, I understand that it's been traditionally More female involvement in, uh, becoming therapists and stuff like that. And working in therapy, why is men's mental health such a awkward subject? I mean, we can look at the stats. I love stats. I'm a, I'm a huge stat nerd when it comes to things like this and we can see the stats and the stats have been, I mean, especially when you start talking about suicide.

Uh, and depression, anxiety, the stats have been there for a, it's not a short number at this point, right? It's not a new issue. So why has it been such an awkward conversation so far in your opinion? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's tough. It's, [00:33:00] it is a little bit infuriating that for so long, it's just kind of been dismissed.

Uh, and I, I think there's this element where, uh, There's a, a blame that gets placed on men, I, so it's like men with the suicide, well, it's men's fault for not dealing with their mental health, um, and there's an element where men have, uh, been socialized for a long times to like, Hey, growing up, don't cry. I think that's kind of diminished.

It's like, okay, it's not actually that bad of a thing. Um, I think there's elements, you know, where we've been taught to control our emotions. And there's a really good side to that that enables you to perform, uh, makes you resilient and makes you tough in certain situations, but it could also have a negative side, um, where there are times where you need to process and let go of the control so you can handle it.

Uh, and move past different [00:34:00] problem points. So, I think there's an element that masculinity and men bring that to the table, and so they get blamed for not, uh, dealing with their mental health, and so it's kind of their fault. Um, and instead of going, well, what are we doing to help men deal with things better?

What are we doing as a, like a system to help them? How are we creating more solutions that will fit with their needs? Um, instead of just telling them to be different, why aren't we meeting them where they're at and helping them from that point on? It's like, there's just some weird cultural, kind of, war stuff that happens in here that makes it a little bit hard to just do what I think is important, which is Help people who are suffering, um, and ignore all that other crap and just focus on that.

Um, we, we talk about stoicism periodically here on the channel and I, I'm a big fan of several stoic [00:35:00] principles. However, one of the holes in that is, I think is a gift that men are able to control their responses, their emotions. Uh, I think it enables men to do a lot of things they couldn't do otherwise.

However, there's never the tail end of that when we're like, you know, control your emotions, control your responses to things. But we never finished that sentence. And find a healthy outlet to process that with once you're out of that scenario, right? That was one of the things my dad worked with me with.

I had anger issues in junior high. I was bullied. I was the fat kid. And so I was bullied and I was picked on and I developed some major anger issues. And I would go split wood. I get home from school, like drop my bag and go outside and just split wood because I had to, it was the only way I could not take someone's head off.

Cause I was getting to the point where you said the wrong thing to me. And like, I'd [00:36:00] bounce you off a hallway locker. Cause I would went through a growth spurt and all of a sudden I was bigger than everybody and stronger than everybody. But I was already so angry so my dad started just the best he could do because he knew I wasn't ready to talk About things was he gave me a physical outlet to blow off and let me work But I don't think we have that conversation when we talk about it in modern masculinity we go control things, but we don't then say but you have to find that healthy outlet for you to process a And deal with those emotions and those feelings, right?

I think we're missing part of that conversation. Yeah, this is so spot on. Um, yeah, I didn't, I appreciate you bringing up stoicism and, you know, things like mental toughness, the word mental toughness, particularly with men is almost like viewed as a negative because it's like, oh, okay. That means, you know, men are processing things.

They're just trying to be tough, [00:37:00] but look at the research on mental toughness. It is hugely valuable to be more mentally tough. It makes you resilient to stress. It means you can perform under pressure. It means you can accomplish things that other people can't. It is, uh, something that we are actually seeing a decrease in, in people over time.

I mean, it's something we should be cultivating the opposite in. More mental toughness. It is good for society. It's good for you. Um, and so, and I, I think with men, they're not hearing the message. This is kind of like a part of masculinity, uh, that controlling of the emotions and, uh, drive towards that mental toughness.

And it's, I feel like a part we should appreciate and encourage, you know, when I also talk about masculinity, it's when you look at research, um, different ideas of what it means to be a masculine man. And, and, you know, there could be traditional. Ideas masculinity conservative progressive ideas masculinity.

There's all kinds of different ideas what it means to be a man [00:38:00] the research Doesn't show that any single one of them is an issue. Um, traditional masculinity is fine. The only way you get into problems with any form of whatever your view is of masculinity is when you have a really rigid take on what it means to be a man and that you always have to embody that.

So, hey, to be a man is to be mentally tough and control emotions. That means a hundred percent of my time, I always need to be mentally tough and control my emotions. And that is just not the case. Uh, you know, one of our protocols, we have a master chief, uh, Navy SEAL who teaches it. And he was talking about in combat.

He's like, you know, in combat, uh, if someone breaks down and cries, uh, it's not going to go well. Like, you can't do that. Uh, you need to be in control of your emotions. You know, if you've lost a comrade and you're like at the funeral, um, and [00:39:00] that is a moment where it might be actually good for you to grieve and let go of some of those emotions and not be in emotional control, because ultimately you then, um.

You know, more fine with whatever is happening in life, more present, more able to, you know, continue living a good life if you sometimes do let go of that control and process and deal with those emotions. So I think it's just really important. It's like, It doesn't matter what your view of masculinity is and if mental toughness is good, but it's just, we need to realize being flexible in situations.

That's where we open up a lot of doors for ourselves. And that's why I often talk about, Hey, just view everything as a different tool. What's the right tool for the right moment? Uh, sometimes the tool in the moment is to let go and deal with those emotions of sadness from a loss. Have you heard, uh, the song from Dax to be a man?

[00:40:00] It was making a circle on social media a couple months ago. Yeah, I didn't hear it. Yeah, Darius Rucker, Darius Rucker re recorded it with him. Like it was a great duet. You should go check it out because it's dealing with that concept of what is a man in modern society and the pressures on them and stuff.

I think it would really resonate with some of the work you're doing. Now guys, I want to be fully transparent. I use the mental app currently. Uh, Anson was generous enough to help me get started with that. And I've been using it regularly and I will give you guys a full review on that upcoming, uh, not in this show, of course, I don't want to take up that time.

But I am using it. I've been using it now for I want to say six or seven weeks Awesome, and I absolutely love this app You've heard me talk about it once or twice on social media if you follow me on Instagram But in the next part of show we was we've been talking about mental health in general right now in the next part of show I'm we're gonna talk a [00:41:00] little bit about mental and how it works.

How is different then? Some of the other options that are out there. Uh, I will tell you, I'm, I'm a believer after using it for several weeks. I look forward to using it. Uh, I'm enjoying it. I've been testing out protocols because I wanted to give you guys full information about it and have a working knowledge of it before I had answered on the show.

So we're going to dive into that a little bit. We're going to dive into how you can. Work on your own mental health and why you should as a man, uh, we're going to go to our sponsor and we'll be right back with more from answering Whitmore. How well do you sleep at night? Do you toss and turn and wake up more tired than when you went to bed?

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Now let's go on to the show guys. Welcome back in the last part of the show. We've been diving into men's mental health, which is. As you know, we believe is a really important topic here on the show and Anson is just giving us a ton, a ton of value in this, in this part of the show, we're going to talk a little bit about the approach that they are taking with the middle of the mental app.

I almost blurred that into one word, the mental health app and I would get that right. Yep. Yeah. Kind of intentional. A different approach. Cause like it fascinated me when I first got in contact with you guys, you said your first hire was a comedian. This is not something we generally associate with [00:43:00] mental health.

So you instantly had my attention. It's like, wait, how does that work? So you guys are coming at a totally different approach aimed specifically at men. I already told you guys, I'm having an incredible experience. I'm loving using this app as part of my daily life. Uh, there are days I miss it because I get busy and I tend to send my phone to the side and just focus on editing or whatever I've got that day.

And I actually noticed the days I don't use it now after using it for, uh, seven, eight weeks, I actually take note. My brain's like, you didn't do that today. So I'm having a really great experience with this, but tell us a little bit about this approach you guys are taking. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Uh, only the only mental health company app or anyone in the space who made hiring a comedian their first hire.

And it's mental health. [00:44:00] I mean, everyone here has heard my story now. Mental health issues can be serious, um, but it doesn't always have to be so damn serious, uh, and it's, I think also you want to get through to guys, it can't be, you know, when I talk to my buddies about what's going on with me, we always bring some amount of levity and humor to it, it's just our way of talking about this kind of stuff, and, but I also just think about it, it's like, man, All serious and boring and would I prefer to do that or go look at social media or all the other things I could do?

There's a lot of competition for our attention right now And I think about like a brand like Liquid Death who took something like water that was just like boring and serious They made it fun and entertaining. I'm like, why doesn't someone do this in the mental health space? It's just like why can't we just make it a little bit more fun?

If you want guys to do stuff here every day, it's got to be fun. If it's just serious, hard work, you're only going to get through to so many folks. Um, so yeah, that's a [00:45:00] big part and, and a big part, probably already picking up on some of the ways that we're approaching it differently of like thinking from the ground floor, you know, what are men's needs?

How do we meet them where they're at and build them up from there? Um, And some of it is, you know, guys are pretty open to tweaking their lifestyle and lifestyle issues are such a major factor. So there's one part of the app that's just all kind of content, uh, media that is, uh, We call it a mental tainment platform or entertainment for your mind, uh, it's supposed to fit seamlessly into your daily routine to kind of just tweak what those routines are in a better way.

Tongue in Cheek V1 of, uh, the app was built around men's shit, shower, and shave routine. Um, so you have like the two minutes of the daily deuce. So, uh, instead of doom scrolling away your daily deuce, listen to the daily deuce. Uh, get a little bit of wisdom, motivation, encouragement. I think of it almost like a microdose of just mindset shift, where it's just a little story [00:46:00] each day that pushes your mind in the right direction, even if you've, if it's a lesson you've heard before, rehearing it, it's just so important to have just a little bit of good words in your mind ringing through your, through your morning, um, cold shower protocol.

I just love this. I'm on this guys. It's. And, and you got like the best person in the world, like this, the honest to God, I would not have done this with you had found anybody else to oversee this protocol. Amazing. Please share that. Yeah. Yeah. He's, uh, uh, about to start recording more content with us. He's a master chief Navy SEAL.

So this is guided, uh, cold shower protocol where you actually press the start button before you get into a hot shower, um, so you do a normal shower and then he kind of starts talking as you're, you know, finish up your hot shower. You could set the time of how long you want to do hot and then builds you up to turn the handle to cold and just starts really easy habit [00:47:00] formation, just showing up.

5 seconds of cold water and it builds up slowly over time to do it more cold. Uh, but everyday he gives you a mental tool that's either from the seals or kind of, uh, mental health, uh, neuroscience, mental health industry generally. But the tool's about how to handle the stress and difficulty of something hard like cold water.

And so you use that tool right in the moment to handle the cold and it makes it a lot easier. Um, but you're also having to laugh the same of comedian we have like pops in, uh, for different episodes and, uh, and he's not a drill sergeant just yelling at you. There's amazing stories of his time in combat, but also his time building out the warrior toughness program for the, for the Navy.

And, uh, there's. It's entertaining, but really what I is just so cool about is you ultimately you're training on your stress to handle stress differently. And what we hear from a lot of [00:48:00] folks is that. Uh, every day kind of stress, like kids yelling in the backseat, they're on a date or interviewing or something like that.

They just show up really differently. These kind of mental tools that they learn turn on, uh, they stay relaxed, they stay focused and they handle themselves better. Um, and this is the part, we had a guy write in recently, he said, um, He's a teacher and there was a school shooting situation that happened and ended up being a false alarm But he said there's three tools from the protocol That just all naturally turned on in the moment He was like I handled myself the way I wanted to handle myself in front of my students that I was the leader I wanted to be in that situation in ways that I just would not have been two months ago And then we're like, you can amaze it.

Um, yeah. And so that's, uh, that part of the app is lifestyle kind of changes. And, um, and then we also have, uh, AI [00:49:00] coach, um, who can go deeper, uh, into what's going on with you if you're kind of struggling, but also is more focused on what are the solutions? How do we work towards problems? And, and the AI is, uh, an AI version of a legendary guy, like.

Bruce Lee, uh, Bob Marley, Muhammad Ali, the dude, Big Lebowski, uh, And they could talk to you about whatever's stressing you. And we have one, uh, conversation you could do in particular where it's like, Hey, I'm just feeling stressed. Help me take the edge off it. And guys report 32 percent decreases in stress in just a 3 4 minute conversation.

Um, which is pretty fucking amazing. And so, you could also go deeper. And to us, It enables you to kind of change your lifestyle, but if things pop up and you need to go deeper, we also got you there. It's just kind of more of a full solution to dealing with mental health. Guys, it's, it's very, you don't feel awkward because it doesn't, it doesn't feel like someone's like trying to [00:50:00] get in touch with your feelings or it doesn't feel like our preconceived notions of mental health.

Right. Uh, from Hollywood, from our exposure on TV and stuff like that, we, we all have that talk therapy, couch therapist, picture in our head. You start talking about therapy. That's what you see in your head. Like I, I challenge you, I, I swear, just, I challenge you. If I say therapy, what picture jumps into your head right now?

Guarantee. It's that. Sopranos. Yeah. It's a prank. What? We have been, what's the right word? Conditioned to think of by Hollywood. Whether it's televisions or movies, that's what we've been conditioned to conceive of. This is therapy, right? It doesn't feel like that. Like, I look forward to listening to the Daily Deuce.

It's freaking hilarious. [00:51:00] Uh, there are times it's touching. Uh, background Christmas, you guys had one where it talked about, you know, the truce going on between two sets of freezing soldiers. And like, I, I teared up a little bit, like it was just a beautiful story, but it also, then you turn it around and implied it to me, you don't feel like you're doing therapy, but like I said, I do actually feel the difference on the days I don't use it.

I notice I'm not doing it. And the way you guys have set up the protocols, like, so I know the science behind cold water exposure for like athletic recovery. I am a personal trainer. Uh, I grew up as an athlete. And so like, I mean, even when I was younger, I remember seeing the ice tubs at like college campuses and stuff like that, high schools.

Uh, for the athletes and I thought, I don't ever want to do that. Right. I do know the research. I'm, I [00:52:00] love like strong man training and stuff like that and power lifting. And I know all those guys at the top level all have ice baths in their home. They use hot tubs because they're really big dudes. But I, I had some questions in my head, right?

I've always gone back and forth because for a long time, there was debates on whether cold showers. Had the same impact as a submersion, right? But the fact that you guys reached out to one of the middle toughness trainers for the seals, I thought if anybody can teach me to handle the cold water, to even try cold showers, like they got this, this incredible guy who, well, let's face it, all of us envision when we were like tough dudes, we all pitched to the seals, the green berets, right?

We're all thinking about the special forces guys. And so I thought, okay, he's going to teach me something about this that I don't know. And if anyone's going to walk me through it, it's going to be this guy. Yep. [00:53:00] So it's a very different, like, you don't feel like you're in a therapist's office. You don't feel like someone's trying to shrink your brain or make you feel a certain way, but you feel compelled to grow and to work on yourself and to actually think a little bit.

Mm hmm. It's a totally different approach. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, That the daily do so we we also followed up with that what we call the daily do which is reflect for a moment on what you just heard and then our AI coach helps turn that into a way for you to act that day. What's a small thing you could do a little bit to step in this direction?

And it's a big thing. Like we listen to podcasts or, uh, read book or something like that. And we're like, Oh, that's interesting insight. But it's also, how does Insight really apply to my life? And that takes a little bit [00:54:00] of work. And then the work to also go, Oh, well, if that's relevant to me that way, what actually should I be doing differently?

And it's like, Oh, okay. I'm going to do this differently today. And if that's what your life starts being, where you start learning things and weaken your life and a little bit differently every day, it adds up in a major way towards. Are you living a life where you feel like you're on autopilot or are you living a life where you think it's a life of purpose where you know what you're doing?

Where you have stress and control, um, and that is a big goal of it. It's just little shifts and have fun doing it, but it has a huge impact on how you feel day in, day out. I love the fact that you made it where you can pick your AI coach. That was such a cool move. Just guys, you get it. You don't, you're not stuck with the big Alaski or Bruce Lee.

They have catalog of guys that all of us know their names. All of us respect them. I promise you're going to find somebody [00:55:00] from the Stoics all the way up to Andrew Huberman. Uh, you're going to find somebody in there that you're like, dude, I listened to that guy. Like I, I, I listened to him. I connect with what he says.

I value his opinion and advice. Uh, that was such a cool feature when I was setting up my profile. Yeah. How did you, I mean, how do you, I don't even know, I don't understand how that works in the background, but it's cool. Yeah, no, it's exciting. Yeah. Uh, we didn't start with that idea. We were just like, uh, when you arrive in the app or like, which, which guys do you look up to, uh, and why do you look up to them just to understand why people are coming in?

And, uh, for them to also understand what we stand for as well. And, and then we're like, oh, well, if we're doing AI. We could build out these models that they be, uh, yeah, Bruce Lee or Muhammad Ali, uh, talking to you and, or there's a, the only one who's not a person is there's a, just a Navy SEAL general archetype.

And then, uh, But [00:56:00] yeah, I figure that's maybe better than Goggins.

Oh, yeah, the Goggins. That's a tangent. Now, Anson, you are working to change the face of mental health for men and make it approachable. Make it something that we actually want to process and work through. Uh, and have that conversation with this company, but how do we start this conversation at home for us?

Cause that's the first place we're going to have the conversation, right? So if our guys listening, because one of the things that you and I totally see an eye on, on that is I like the daily do because I like action steps. I like takeaways. So we've got men listening to the show right now. Now, obviously guys, I'm going to say, even if Anson doesn't say it, go download the app, seriously, just do yourself a favor.

Like I said, full review coming out [00:57:00] later, but just, just go down on the app. Okay. You know, I don't promote apps. This is the third app I've ever covered on the show in season five. This is the third app I've ever actually covered. One of them was also another mental health app. Uh, different build out interesting, but I got to say this one, I've, I've used both.

I love your app. I am a fan. Uh, but I can tell you guys that, but right now, maybe you're listening to this conversation, right? What are the first three steps our listeners can take to start adjusting their own self talk, their own headspace to start looking at dealing with their mental health? Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean it's so great to have this conversation.

Um, you know, yeah Yeah, look at just the rates of how much like it's eight out of ten guys are [00:58:00] reporting that they're super stressed And stressed frequently the loneliness rates that we hear amongst men are super high amount of money you feel like they're on autopilot and not living a life of purpose is It's wildly high.

It's gotten higher. I mean, there's, it's, I think we used to think, oh, this is kind of mental health is like, oh, it's something like where you're on medication and this is a few people over here who are depressed and have an issue and I'm not one of those guys, but the reality is when you look at the numbers, almost all of us are dealing with issues around mental health.

It's a normal thing now. It's not the odd thing. It's the standard. Um, and so, yeah. We just live in a different society, you know, a hundred years ago when, I don't know, we lived in the high plains maybe, was fine to just be the meanest son of a bitch out there with the quickest draw on the six shooter, but now we live in an era where we have really different pressures on us [00:59:00] with social media, etc.

We need to be thinking about how to handle those life pressures in a different way. And the reality is, is we have to combat them. We need to actively work on countering the ways that modern society is pushing us to behave and act and feel. Um, and so this requires a certain amount of intentionality and training.

So, I think when it's just thinking about mental health, it's, we're all dealing with issues of modern society. It is the norm. I think that's the big thing people need to Be clear about in their head, and that the way to handle it, it doesn't have to just be talk therapy or nothing. There is a tremendous number of ways you could tweak your lifestyle, uh, that will make you feel fulfilled, happy, less stressed.

Life? Short. It's really short. It's like, we all think we're going to live to 85, um, be that old guy who dies with family around him. But We could die in an accident [01:00:00] tomorrow. You know, we could get cancer in a couple years. We don't realize how fleeting it is until it's gone. And so you need, it's like our one opportunity to be able to appreciate, you know, dancing with your wife or seeing the sunset or all your kids growing up or all the magical things we have.

But working on your mental health and putting a little work there is what will enable you to really appreciate that stuff. Appreciate the magic of being live for just such a short amount of time. Try to hide all that stuff. It's like we're just gonna let this life go by without really any kind of meaning to it, without being the sort of man that you ultimately want to be.

And so I think without working on your mental health, it ultimately is a way to live a life with a lot of regrets versus a life Uh, that is full of, like, happiness and purpose. So what I'm hearing you say is, A, we have to first start to normalize that in our brain. It's not weird, [01:01:00] it's not abnormal, it's not something that doesn't make you weird, or strange, or horrible, or broken.

Right? So we have to normalize the conversation in our head. Makes you a modern human. Then we have to look for a path, a solution, that we want to try, that we're willing to try. Yeah. Right? And then not wait, right? That's, that's the third thing is do something don't, don't wait. So understand it's, it's normal.

It's okay. It doesn't make you broken. Pick a solution to try, pick something, pick a direction, whether it's talk therapy, or if you don't think you need talk therapy, maybe it's just having like a group of friends that you guys sit down and actually have real conversations and then make it immediate.

Right. That's what I'm hearing is don't wait. Uh, if you're, if you're even starting to question [01:02:00] that you might have some mental health concerns, whether it's anxiety or depression, you guys, when we say mental health, everybody's like thinking about schizophrenia. We're not. Okay. We're talking about depression.

We're talking about anxiety. We're talking about being withdrawn from people, right? Or just, just feeling stressed day in, day out, overwhelmed at work. You're worrying about your finances, uh, you're fighting with your partner, uh, like that's, that's mental health. I'm feeling like you're on autopilot. That's mental health.

It doesn't have to, you know, capital D depression. Um, it's just, I'm stressed and not feeling that great every day or, or I know I could be feeling better and more on top of my game. That's mental health. So what's next for Anson Whitmore? Are we, are you going to continue to expand the app or are we adding more things to it or?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, there's some vanilla up over your sleeves, too. [01:03:00] Oh, yeah. Uh, it's like we have our next protocol in the works. Um, we are just, um, just sorting out the coach won't be Navy SEAL, but it, it might be, uh, a very famous boxer, um, which I'd be pretty excited if it goes that way. Um, but again, it is, it won't be cold water.

It'll be something physical. And again, it's kind of that combination of doing some physical. A lot of guys like to deal with their mental health. By exerting themselves physically, but that combination of what's your mindset while you're doing some physical? How does that mindset show up in the rest of your day?

How's that mindset help you do that physical thing even better than you otherwise would so Entertainment and fun plus like shifts in mind We have yeah, there's there's a bunch coming up. The next six months is all about building different stuff out and Really excited to for [01:04:00] you to see where it's gonna be come like June July That's cool.

I'm looking forward to that for sure. Where is the best place for people to connect with you? Um, yeah, I, you could find me on LinkedIn. Uh, my full name. Uh, that's a great spot. We're at Get Mental, uh, dot com is where we're at. We like to tell everyone it's time to get mental and you can actually get ahold of me at anson@getmental.com.

Now, I know that everybody's really concerned about this, that the oldest drink in the United States is not actually Coca-Cola. Dang. It is the ginger Pepper. Oh, it's Dr. Pepper. Dr. Pepper is the oldest soft drink in the, in the United States. Uh, they also own 7 Up. Yeah. It's, uh, it's still independent, actually.

Uh, Dr. Pepper is his own company down in Texas. What, do you know what year? I don't know what year. Yeah. [01:05:00] I must say. I look at these questions, but I didn't have the dates. I, I trusted one lying to me when I was there. I'm just amazed. I, I love Dr. Pepper growing up. Anson, we, we've talked about some really important things today.

But the, this is the moment, okay, I want you to take us out. If our listeners heard nothing else that we talked about in this entire conversation, what do you want them to hear today?

First thoughts is it's time to get mental. Uh, it really is. It's, we got to stop delaying this stuff. It is so valuable. You will see a difference. Uh, there's a lot of different pools out there. Find the tool that works for you and start using it. Guys for Ansel Whitmore and for myself. Thanks for hanging out with us today Be better tomorrow because what you do today, we'll see on the next one.

This has been the Fallible Man [01:06:00] podcast Your home for everything man, husband and father. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a show head over to www. thefallibleman. com For more content and get your own Fallible Man gear I'm not takin I ain't waitin I'm not takin